raven0us

What are the boundaries of acceptable violence? | June 24, 2011


Acceptable violence.

You know what’s some shit? Violence.

Yup.

So smash the state and things right?

Then skip to the like feely time where we blubber about the internalization of dominant culture and yada yada.

Well yesterday, I was munchin’ on some lunch at this restaurant and these two men start fucking me with their eyes. One I wasn’t like overly pissed about then one was like the image of the white man oppressor, big belly, 17 chins, backwards oakleys on his head. Anyhow, I begins eaves dropping a bit (you know how I roll) plus they were, as I have aforementioned, obnoxious so their topics were broadcasted… badda bing badda boom, they’re talking about the capitol gain available in our fluffy fancy military industrial complex. Ol’boy with the oakleys is all, “I diversify my stocks in other countries blabbity blah(can’t you just hear his arteries clogging with psychoanalytical nonsense?). All’s we really have to worry about is getting’ our men back… the mission, bah, the mission, whatever that is. We go. We get paid. We get “our” men back.(Litrally finger quotes and all)” He was selling the military to this younger fella. Not too much younger, he shoulda known better then to sit through that pile of gut rotting bullshit.

Long story short, I’m shaking in my panties with disgust. I get up walk over to the table (they were thrilled, all like “hey hey hey”) and I says to ‘em I says, “You two are the two biggest pieces of gluttonous sloppy shit I have ever seen. I served 7 years in the military and you, my sorry son of a bitch friends, are exactly why I’d burn that whole shit down if I could.”

Cajones.

I also throw punches now and then when I deem appropriate, proverbial and literal, ya feel me?

Key here being, “when I deem appropriate.”

 

So what’s good?

It’s all good if I punch a nazi or a patriot ass money hungry soldier, but if i punch your boy, who I feel is oppressive to me. then we got something to talk about? But not your boy’s oppression?

And here’s where it gets really sticky.

My last community will sing it to the heavens that I am destructively violent and they all FEAR me in so many ways, because I’m unpredictable and explosive. My “bombasticness” is a security threat, because my antics are targetable. Yet, my antics also keep me vigilant enough to react to civilized(civilized being an insult here) slobs.

AND we talk about “the lower class” and “class war”…

Those are our peoples, right?

AND we walk around talking about rewilding (mmmmm rewilding)…

Our people.

But our punches have to be controlled?

No infighting, right?

I call that domestication.

The caveat to this whole conversation being, I can and am ready to take a punch from a friend, need be. Let’s be real.

You know what is a security threat? Side talking fools. Get out of my face with that. That’s like building a brick house in snitch-ville. There is this entire grey area of cliquiness that permeates all interaction. Who is “good enough” or deserving enough to be in those conversations? Where, anywhere in there, are we not isolating ourselves from each other. That’s slave tactics, divide the families, divide the strength.

Enough.

One of the biggest strengths I saw at feral futures was all of us throwing ourselves out there. Everyone talked about their break downs and weakness and then we all found strength in our commonalities. From that point forward anyone that showed up said, “This is a good group of people.” “This is a strong group of people.” (Of coarse, a bit of that was the beautiful nurturing land base we were residing on, but not all of it. Not all of it.)

Break down walls that divide us. Traverse break down. Rebuild each other.

Punch if you’ve got to, or don’t  😉

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38 Comments »

  1. “There is no breakthrough, without breakdown and if you’re gonna break, shatter.” -Mindy Nettifee

    Comment by raven0us — June 24, 2011 @ 9:12 pm

  2. Some definitions of “bombastic” that it seems you should be aware of:

    pompous, grandiloquent, turgid, florid, grandiose, pretentious, verbose, a use or a user of language more elaborate than is justified by or appropriate to the content being expressed. Bombastic suggests language with a theatricality or staginess of style far too powerful or declamatory for the meaning or sentiment being expressed

    I don’t understand why you think this is a good thing, but from following your blog, it at least seems accurate.

    Comment by Mr. Bombastic — June 24, 2011 @ 11:36 pm

  3. Also, let’s be clear…

    After reading through your blog entries, you actually seem to want to defend patriarchal actions, as long as they come from you, and not someone else.

    Random violence towards friends and lovers is not some sort of righteous thing that should be celebrated. It’s patriarchal in nature.

    And now, this latest blog entry defends your patriarchal tendencies by saying their natural and a form of re-wilding. That actually seems like a shirt sighted way to make yourself feel better for repeatedly pushing people away from you with your violence. Your blogs mention several communities, organizations, groups, and places that you are no longer welcome due to your behavior.

    Maybe at some point you could admit that maybe the problem is you, and not every other person in your life?

    Reading your blog is like reading the ranting of someone just begging for attention of some sort. I’m sorry I’m giving you some, but I promise not to any longer.

    Good luck in “healing” or whatever it is your trying to get out of this blog. Although, I think you should rewrite the mission to be more clear to folks reading that this blog is actually just a way for you to publicly belittle anyone who has ever felt unsafe by your behavior.

    Comment by Mr. Bombastic — June 24, 2011 @ 11:42 pm

  4. Oh. Dang. One more, sorry.

    The anarchistnews.org story you posted is a good one, but actually seems to be problematic for you. After reading your epic mini-novela rant railing against people who you name publicly, it became obvious, even with your incessant blame on everyone else around you, that if those folks had taken your advice from the article you just posted, they should have inflicted extreme physical harm on you with the way you threatened them, their organization, and their space.

    Instead, the seemingly offered you some sort of structured way to earn your way back into the collective, which you admittedly declined.

    They seemed to have cut you far more slack than you deserved, based on your own logic.

    I don’t agree with needlessly attacking people, even if they have been abusive, but based on the link you posted, you do. So, shouldn’t people have just “kicked your ass” and “thrown punches” because you were a seemingly abusive and unsafe person toward them?

    Comment by Mr. Bombastic — June 24, 2011 @ 11:49 pm

    • hola random being that has trouble staying away from my blog even though it infuriates you,
      it has been my pleasure assisting you in feeling something. anything. i agree, i am also patriarichal, which i find some pride in because resisting the gender bianary isn’t actually abolishing one for the other it is finding balance between both, which i talk to josie about in my personal rant.
      even in this post i do purpose physical regulation towards me. from my experience, as i have been in several physical altercations even prior to my analysis, from my experience, feeling and following intuition is always the most fruitful. pain can not be avoided.
      just because people have offered structured process does not mean it is genuine or effective(cough:legal system/cops).

      I agree. I am wrong in many ways. My goal is not correctness, it is transparency. I really really appreciate getting called on my shit. I can decide there after, if I agree or not. magic.

      thanks for being my first hater. i feel special.
      lesley.

      Comment by raven0us — June 25, 2011 @ 1:02 am

      • Last one and i’m done… I appreciate Mr. Bombastic’s answer here, because it shows the disconnect from your theory and your desires. The way you are applying that article to this situation, shows your immediate lack of structural analysis. If collectives were to do to you what you were proposing, nothing would be different in this situation, other than you would’ve gotten beat. At no point does that article hint at the idea that after you physically damage those identified as the ‘perpetrator’ do things then become hunky dory, and everyone goes on as normal. People still have the personal autonomy of association.

        If a rapist was in someones space and your idea of ‘justice’ played out, but that same person continually justified their actions and made it clear they had no intent on changing their actions, but continuing in them, then people have every right to disassociate with them.

        Comment by Zach — June 25, 2011 @ 4:32 pm

    • it is funny to me that we create other forms of violence and scorn the physical. in most conflict avoidant cultures (my middle class white folk culture included) we have violence down to an art, we fuck with each other emotionally and psychologically. we communicate in unclean and manipulative ways. i am not beyond these stupid games, i am dealing with my own passive aggression and self hate for that passive aggression. but when someone admits they want to punch the fat guy a table over who’s supporting a force of violent domination in the world and perpetuating the right to violent domination of the female form, we get our panties in a bunch. fuck that. i do believe that there is a time when violence must be met with violence. and this is not a defense of “random violence” and i dont think that that is what lesley’s been writing about here.

      so what says you, clearly passive aggressive mr. bombastic? if i had to guess, i would assume you created some false account with that name, because it seems too much of a coincidence that you’ve been following the blog but only chiming in now. my guess is you’re someone who feels guilty (though you may not recognize that emotion as such) and clearly on the defensive. you’re probably from within DABC and i would guess you’ve never commented before. i have some fun ideas of who you might be, but it would be so much better if you let go of the anonymity and claimed your emotions and opinions. thanks for your socially acceptable violence, mr. bombastic. much appreciated for proving my point.

      and ummmmm. i bet you know who mr bombastic is too. maybe intimately. prove me wrong.

      Comment by Sara Tansey — June 25, 2011 @ 8:41 pm

      • well sara, i feel like thats specifically calling me out, which just isn’t true. Lesley has specifically block my responses, i’d be surprised if this one makes it thru. So much for honesty.

        Comment by Zach — June 26, 2011 @ 2:36 am

  5. I don’t think Mr. Bombastic is your first hater, judging from some of the comments on other blog entries… Far from it, actually.

    Comment by Ummm... — June 25, 2011 @ 2:58 pm

    • True that, I’ve been pretty cool way longer than I realized. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂

      Comment by raven0us — June 25, 2011 @ 4:00 pm

  6. Man… i’ve tried so hard to stay away from this, but i need to say something here. If i had only i read this before the last two days… Things would have been different. Its so difficult to address how we hold on to ideas of people, and forget to look at who they actually are.

    Lesley, i really wanted to have our ‘possibly forever’ and even our deepest fantasy of having kids together, and i definitely struggle with those reoccurring feelings. But not here, not with this person. This is so far from who i feel in love with.

    I realize this morning that you just say the things i want to hear, the things that make you able to get something from me. Yesterday we talked all day about ending cycles, about starting fresh and how our forms of back and forth perpetuate themselves. All the while you were writing this, which makes it obvious that you are not looking to end perpetuated cycles, but only justify them. Honestly i think this blog is gonna have the opposite effect you intended, the way you are using green anarchist social theory to justify the ways you have been physically and emotionally abusive just turns me off to any such ideas of ‘rewilding'(thou i know thats not fair, its only a reflection of you). Trying to have this be the flag ship for honesty, you’re doing a piss poor job of being honest in your personal life.

    So, because i think the reality is that this blog does so much speaking for itself, i just want to address some of the comments being made here.

    First, i’m actually pretty glad you didn’t adjust saying you’re being patriarchal vs. being masculine. As a cis-gendered male struggling with both that identity and that of what being queer means to me, i too struggle constantly with how to balance the feminine and masculine within me (not always doing a very good job) and how patriarchy influences my life and those around me. But, and what i think is probably from you being a cis-gendered woman growing up and constantly being fend and injected with patriarchal dominance in your social arenas (most women are but between your childhood and the military, yours is definitely special) it seems like you are pretty confused with what patriarchy is. Masculinity and patriarchy are NOT the same, they are NOT synonyms. You are very clearly taking the definition of masculinity the dominate, patriarchal society places upon us as men, and trying to use it in your justifications. You are taking the very devices that we wish to destroy with the end to a patriarchal society and using them…

    Very clearly- “Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the male as the primary authority figure is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and is dependent on female subordination.” -wiki

    “Patriarchy is the single most life-threatening social disease assaulting the male body…” Bell Hooks

    Another thing i’ve been doing since our separation, is really reading and delving into my own oppressive tendencies, and because of our dynamics i made sure patriarchy was one of them. Now this is a never ending struggle, so i definitely don’t expect you to get this tomorrow, especially as new as this feels for you, but here are some thoughts to consider.

    I personally believe that our source of masculinity starts from our fathers, its where we first feel assessed to how we measure up as men and from that initial point, we spend our entire lives trying to live up to the hype, the expectations of other men, and then how that feeding into consumer capitalism.

    Comment by Zach — June 25, 2011 @ 4:11 pm

    • one other important thought…

      “…This feminist definition of masculinity as the drive for power is theorized
      from women’s point of view. It is how women experience masculinity. But it assumes
      a symmetry between the public and the private that does not conform to
      men’s experiences. Feminists observe that women, as a group, do not hold power
      in our society. They also observe that individually, they, as women, do Qot feel
      powerful. They feel afraid, vulnerable. Their observation of the social reality and
      their individual experiences are therefore symmetrical. Feminism also observes
      that men, as a group, are in power. Thus, with the same symmetry, feminism has
      tended to assume that individually men must feel powerful.
      This is why the feminist critique of masculinity often falls on deaf ears with
      men. When confronted with the analysis that men have all the power, many men
      react incredulously. “What do you mean, men have all the power?” they ask.”What
      are you talking about? My wife bosses me around. My kids boss me around. My
      boss bosses me around. I have no power at all! I’m completely powerless!”
      Men’s feelings are not the feelings of the powerful, but of those who see themselves
      as powerless. These are the feelings that come inevitably from the discontinuity
      between the social and the psychological, between the aggregate analysis
      that reveals how men are in power as a group and the psychological fact that they
      do not feel powerful as individuals. They are the feelings of men who were raised
      to believe themselves entitled to feel that power, but do not feel it.” -MICHAELS.KIMMEL

      Comment by Zach — June 25, 2011 @ 4:18 pm

  7. Karma will be a bitch.

    Comment by jess mccloud — June 26, 2011 @ 2:24 am

  8. Here is a reply that I got on my FB when I posted this as a link that I feel is extremely vital.

    “i can’t fucking BELIEVE the commenter calling it “random” and calling physical ferocity “patriarchal in nature”, thus claiming wymyn who do lash out are merely defending, enacting, or appropriating patriarchal dynamics. what utter fucking bullshit. it’s the same reason Angela Franklin had to be an Angry Mama Bear to the folks at the Red and Black Café, to reiterate that being physically threatening and dangerous is not the private property of patriarchy, and that in the wild and real world, it is often the mothers who are the most ferocious.”

    Comment by raven0us — June 26, 2011 @ 2:49 pm

  9. I have so much to say here. I feel like Sara wrapped mr.bombastic up quite nicely and I am not sure who’s karma is going to be a bitch where with mccloud’s comment. Karma is a bitch, sometimes she bites sometimes she is a loyal watchdog. I have been feeling the loyal watchdog side of my kamra. It steered me here to this blog post. It feels right and pertinent.

    Somewhere in here and all over pacifist denver and worldwide, I get this response to me saying i would punch someone need be, i get this response to me actually punching when i feel necessary and the response is, “what would a community do to a man that abuses his wife? what would a community do to a rapist?” and you know, IDK. I have been working alot to figure out that answer, but then last night I also thought, that isn’t really my job to figure that out alone. I am not a rapist. I am not an abuser.

    I AM NOT A RAPIST.

    I AM NOT AN ABUSER.

    I am someone who reacts. I am someone who sees that physicality happens.

    Within the community that judges me so harshly and has thrown their hands up at me(who specifically threw their hands up at me when they knew I was actively suicidal *actively*, like taking jars of pills in front of them and telling them that I realize I need to die slowly because I hear how worthless they tell me I am, and no one even flinched.)… Within that community are people who talk shit on zeitgeist kids, they puff up and say, “I’m gonna punch that dude in the face.”

    Fact is, they won’t. I also personally feel they won’t react when we need it, against the forces we resist. If there is anything I have learned from my ghetto upbringing it is how to separate the talk from the action.

    Marches are great. Riot… cool, fun. But, boy when push comes to shove, some people are going to wish they didn’t treat me like a murderous heathen. I am proudly schooled in action. I trust myself in the moment. I am not a pompous monster.

    My lashing out is not irrational.

    Comment by raven0us — June 26, 2011 @ 3:36 pm

    • Ok, this has been hard because of the way we have isolated ourselves from each other, so i feel like mine and your communication has obviously broken down so much.

      I don’t feel like i have ever singled you out as an abuser. I can’t speak for your interactions with other people. But i don’t think of you as an ‘abuser.’ I don’t personally think other people thought that during the accountability process either, but unfortunately your personal spiral into desperation coincided with it, so people experienced lashing out on them, which only helped them internalize my story more. I think the great thing that article does point out is how that is cyclical. People who perpetrate abuse, get better, have healthy relationships, and people who suffer thru abuse lash out and perpetrate abuse. And yes how can we pretend like its not so, with how overall abusive industrial capital, patriarchy, policing, etc. is? How are we not supposed to internalize that?

      One thing that is important to deconstruct is this statement …“what would a community do to a man that abuses his wife? what would a community do to a rapist?” and you know, IDK. I have been working alot to figure out that answer, but then last night I also thought, that isn’t really my job to figure that out alone. I am not a rapist. I am not an abuser.”
      I agree with that, you should not have to figure that out alone. You being alone was a big mistake. But unfortunately, we do have to come up with something, or not unfortunately. This is the situation we find ourselves in. Not that you were a stand alone abuser. WE were abusive to each other. It got ignored for a long time, and we did ok, we went back and forth and i still maintain that that period was definitely more good than bad. Especially after getting out of the other housing situation that was becoming destructive. That period had its problems, but it worked for a while. I still miss building jordans fort every night. Unfortunately this thing, whatever you want to call it sat there like a time bomb. So the collective HAD to do something. I was talking to Pat about this last night and i still agree with the general premise, that there was something wrong and it needed to be addressed, that the collective didn’t have the tools, but that we would all help find those tools. Well so the only tools i ever had presented to me, was the counseling i’m going to, which while yes still apart of the dominate culture, is helpful for me. I look forward to it. Sometimes i just need someone to talk to. I feel the intentions were great, but sometimes thats not enough. Follow thru. Whoa, any way, thats why i think that question is important. Its not pacifist, thats kinda an elitist view, because even we still don’t have the answer in non-pacifist circles. This situation would and will continue to play out if we don’t at least try and come up with ideas.

      i mean the fact of the matter remains we were still abusive to each other. I still wrestled you at points and you threatened me with a knife. You took pills you knew wouldn’t kill you one time to make me think that you were gonna kill yourself, and i played mind games. Most of all i neglected your trauma. I took advantage of your trust. These are all things that happened, and we both incurred abuse. We both maintain that it was defensive, and i was more passive aggressive and you were more blatant about it. It doesn’t matter what our stories are anymore. Even more to the point, the things that have been more easily demonized in the recent months, the things that were ‘stand alone’ are devoid of how me not keeping my promises to you were also violent. Having a little taste of the mind frame makes that clear to me. Makes me see how i react the same way. I want to lash out right now, and its not irrational.

      Here is the point that the article doesn’t mention. Healing. I don’t know how to heal. But i want to. If communities are serious about reacting to each other this way, like that article claims, we better also know what healing looks like. I’m not of the opinion any more that space really helped. It helps solidify our stories in our heads, it helps create more boundaries and ideas between people. But i don’t think it was helpful.

      So i’m trying my own thing for healing, i’m going to counseling, i’m writing again, i’m diving into my own oppressive dynamics, my neediness, patriarchy, etc. i’m gonna try and get my body healthy again, once i start eating (i know what you meant now by the depression smell) I think most importantly thou, is i’m taking what you’ve been yelling at me seriously. My fight or flight has been working in over drive, and its time i pick fight. I’m reading the books you needed me to, i’m figuring out what healing looks like. I don’t know what i’m fight for. Too little, too late. But it’ll help me be better, it’ll help those who need this. it’ll help.

      Last thing, you told me a little bit ago that if i loved you i’d edit my blog post. Now that feels kinda controlling, but i can explain things more if thats needed. “But not here, not with this person. This is so far from who i feel in love with.

      I realize this morning that you just say the things i want to hear, the things that make you able to get something from me.”

      so this part is probably the biggest deal. I think this is very clear here. I still love you, but you aren’t honest with me anymore. I wish you were more transparent. I get why you hesitate, but a conversation about this face to face would be super productive. You had me thinking that you were thinking about breaking cycles, about healing. Don’t pull punches in those convos. Its important to talk about this blog specifically when we’re looking for a balance in what healing looks like. But you didn’t do that and thats frustrating.

      i hope this blog goes back to the positive healing posts again. Not that finding your power isn’t positive, but i think we need good examples of what this healing looks like. You may have found one answer for yourself, but there are many pieces to a broken heart, and i’d like to watch you on your journey.

      Comment by Zach — June 26, 2011 @ 5:09 pm

      • “Last thing, you told me a little bit ago that if i loved you i’d edit my blog post. Now that feels kinda controlling.”

        You think everything I do is controlling, because you react only to fear with fear.

        To clarify what I was saying to you is. Zach, I don’t want you proposing to marry me like you did literally 5 days ago. I don’t want you telling me that you are moving out of your community as some sacrifice to your love for me as you have told me you were going to do since the beginning of all of this until now. I don’t want you.

        I was saying, you need to be consistant. You don’t need to be messaging me how amazing I am and how you can’t live a second without me and then come on here tearing me down fwt’s style, pointing out only bad things.

        I need you to be consistant like staying true to your accountability process because it is something you tell the world you take seriously. This means when you are stalking me at work leaving post it notes everywhere because I have blocked your phone and your fb, when you are stalking me then asking for me back, you need to be contacting your accountability partner, which you flat out told me you refused to do because you knew they wouldn’t say what you wanted to hear.

        You say, “Well so the only tools i ever had presented to me, was the counseling i’m going to, which while yes still apart of the dominate culture, is helpful for me.”

        AND THIS IS A BLANTENT EXAMPLE OF YOUR COMFORT LEVELS SUPPORTING YOUR PASSIVITY AS WELL AS YOUR COMMUNITY SUPPORTING YOUR PASSIVITY/PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE NATURE.

        “the only tools I ever had presented to me.”

        Hell Zach, if I waited for the only tools presented to me, I’d literally be dead right now. I took an active stance and reached out for every single resource available on my own accord. You could have to. And counseling WAS NOT the only resource presented to you. I gave you a book to read at least a month ago and you just started it days ago when you realized other men were sensing my worth.

        You have been lazy and half assed and self absorbed. I will not tout your actions as anything but passive and lacking compassion.

        I am thankful this has lead to our seperation.

        Comment by Lesley — June 28, 2011 @ 5:26 pm

      • So i think the biggest thing here is that i don’t feel like i have to be consistent at all. What i need to be, and what i’m doing is being honest, honest with every emotion within me. I live with this emotional contradiction, everyday, I love you, more than i’ve ever loved any one, and i hate you, i hate your abusive nature, i hate the way you don’t actually take responsibility for those things you do to people, how you only justify them. Those are true feelings, and everyone i interact with these days gets a taste of that, so in actuality its not ‘YOUR COMMUNITY SUPPORTING YOUR PASSIVITY/PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE NATURE’ is them understanding the complicated nature of what i’m going thru, they are supporting me in my messiness, and i’ve had some of the best interaction with these people because of how transparent i’m being, i’m really seeing how many friends i have. Plus i don’t get how me missing you, but still being angry at you is at all passive aggressive.

        I’m actually surprized you wrote this, with everything that went on today, and considering the same contradiction you yourself live with. I fully admit, working with you is hard as shit. I miss you more than i’ve ever missed anything. anything. Sometimes i act out, sometimes i can’t take it, sometimes you act out, sometimes you can’t take it. Today i totally didn’t listen you you several times when you asked me to leave you alone, i can absolutely admit that. But when are you gonna admit the things you do? When are you gonna live up to your contradictions? Like the contradiction of telling me to leave you alone all morning, but when i did in the afternoon, you specifically sought me out and found me breaking down during everyone of ‘our songs’ when you heard them on the radio (granted i’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here, that totally could have been a malicious thing, like checking to make sure i’m still in pain). What about the contradiction of bring up you blocking my number, when thats completely misleading to the fact that you did that in an effort to stop harassing me. What about the contradiction of right now you’re planning an awesome rainbow trip with your new squeeze, when just months ago you spent days making me feel guilt for even mentioning that to another girl, because that was ‘our thing’ (way to try and recreate our story btw). What about the contradiction of ‘You have been lazy’ with the things that you asked of me, when you remember, when this started i have very specific requests of you too, requests that you could never follow thru with. Remember the boundary i set when you asked me to come over all the time initially? Remember me saying that i’d be more than happy to, but lets try and get along at work first, and how consistently you created conflict (i definitely did sometimes too). I’m not being consistant and neither are you, but i’m being honest.

        Btw, an assumption you’re making is that apart of my accountability process is not talking to you, and feel free to ask my accountability partners that that isn’t true. They think specifically that its not healthy, but its not a requirement.

        Yesterday i felt strong. I figured out why our dynamics play out the way they do. Addiction. We very specifically were completely addicted to each other and our addiction held all the power. We kept telling ourselves that the other person kept taking power from ‘me’ and thats fucked up and i need to take that power back. Then the other person would wonder why they were trying to take ‘my’ power away more when we felt powerless already. So we would push back…. and back and forth… and back and forth…. Never identifying the addiction. This morning i felt strong when i gave you that letter, but it waned… addiction is hard… working with you is hard… Knowing you are still addicted and can’t admit it, helps me be strong again, its not just me, you came to find me… the one time in the lab. our eyes met for fractions of a second and i knew you just wanted me to know…. thank you….

        “Hell Zach, if I waited for the only tools presented to me, I’d literally be dead right now”…. i hate to go here, but lesley, with as often as you have threatened me with life and limb, with knifes and other weapons, i could be just as dead. Plus lets talk about the violence of how you’ve used the fact you have suicidal tendencies as a weapon to hold power against me. Thats why space was healthy for us… i’m sorry there was a lack of tools within our community, i’m sorry you got neglected, but this wasn’t a space where i could help you, and we both know that.

        I did fail you in so many ways, i did just read that book. I can’t apologize enough for not taking you as seriously as i should have. Today i don’t think cutting communication cold turkey was completely healthy, i think that was a mistake, and i’m also sorry for how that played into our co-parenting techniques, i thought i was doing the right thing to make us healthy, and i absolutely don’t think i did it right. I’m sorry you feel like i’m tearing you down on here, thats not my intent. I’m specifically trying to challenge you fwts style, like we used to, constructive dialogue, about something i struggle with, patriarchy, something i hold as important to dissect. I’m hurt by you in so many ways, so yes i admit sometimes i perpetuate that cycle we are in.

        I think thats whats most frustrating about our cycles thou, you don’t see it as a cycle. This blog is the breathing testament to how i’ve fucked up, i helped ruin a love that i was sure could move mountains, or at least movements. But i did not do that alone. This was not my single handed mess. You don’t admit that you follow me around the office when you miss me too. You don’t admit that sometimes (and its happened a lot) your actions weren’t defensive against mine, but that you also antagonize too. I scoured this entire blog and keeping in mind all the fuck up shit that has happened, since March 17, 2011, the most you have mustered up to saying you’ve had a part in this, was, “I think I feel most lost at this time because, yes, I have failed over and over since coming to Denver, but I feel at this point like I’m drowning.” (May 8th) Which you immediately just discounted as people trying to suppress your voice. The thing about healthy relationships, about healthy communities, about healthy people, is they admit when they are wrong. (And you may have done this to me a couple of times personally, but never about these serious issues, and there are so, so many other people who need to hear it too) They learn from their mistakes, they try and make it better. NOT that they are perfect. NO one is perfect. The work you say you do (and i still even believe you do what you say you do, i don’t think you’re a complete liar) no one sees, no one hears, we’re still all just reminded how this is all our faults and you are victim to our neglect.

        So this i where i draw the line between love and addiction. Love was something we had when we knew what a partnership meant, when we, even in person, could be each others inside voice, and honest loving dialogue ruled supreme. (No matter how much you say that you don’t think i ever loved you, you remember these times well). I can’t pinpoint when this started, but today we are a mess, and we are addicted. We are a living testament to sometimes (no matter how militant you think you are) how violence can be cyclical just as much as it can stop oppression. I have trouble with addiction, but i’m getting better….

        “I think that little by little I’ll be able to solve my problems and survive.” -Frida Kahlo

        closure….

        Comment by zach — June 29, 2011 @ 4:35 am

      • Review June 9th’s post. I admit very black and white to a ton TON of twisted shit I do. I am admitting here to thoughts and patterns that I am unsure of. This is not a conviction or absolute. I am speaking unfiltered. Do I think a punch need to b e thrown now and then(like when I cracked your cheek bone for telling my son his mommy was a bad mommy)?
        Yes. I think there is a time and a place. Like you said, diversity of tactics.

        I am not at a lack of taking responsibility(period)

        And seriously, ask to have more counseling sessions because you’re dillusional. I couldn’t convince the people I am hanging out with to go to rainbow if I tried and DO NOT belittle me with giving another man ownership over me again by calling someone my “main squeeze”.

        I AM ALLOWED TO EXIST WITHOUT BEING SOMEONE’S PROPERTY.

        I can have pictures of me with someone who has a penis and still be me.

        ” “Hell Zach, if I waited for the only tools presented to me, I’d literally be dead right now”…. i hate to go here, but lesley, with as often as you have threatened me with life and limb, with knifes and other weapons, i could be just as dead. Plus lets talk about the violence of how you’ve used the fact you have suicidal tendencies as a weapon to hold power against me. Thats why space was healthy for us… i’m sorry there was a lack of tools within our community, i’m sorry you got neglected, but this wasn’t a space where i could help you, and we both know that.”

        “Used suicidal tendencies as a weapon to hold power against me”

        are you serious?! I was attempting to kill myself! And somehow that is about you?!?! Suicide is not a joke, it is not manipuation, it is an attempt to not exist and every EVERY single time I have attempted suicide I have done it because I don’t want Jordan to have a mother like the person you describe here. BUT I AM NOT THAT PERSON.

        MY INTENTIONS ARE NOT MALISCIOUS. I AM POSITIVE AND BEAUTIFUL. I AM KIND AND NURTURING.

        And just to maintain perspective here, I was not having panic attacks over our break up. I was not fist fighting over the loss of your love. My SON, a CHILD, was abandoned and cried to sleep for literally months asking where you were, WHERE EVERYONE WAS THAT CLAIMED TO LOVE HIM. He still asks everyday to go to ABC and see his friends, ask anyone who sees him. I was a single mother left with no support. As another reply said, momma bears protect their babies. I will fight to the death for that boy. YOU have forgotten him every step of the way. You DID NOT build a tree house every afternoon. You tacked some boards to a tree on two seperate occasions. You’re a dead beat when it comes to Jordan. I wish I never brought you into his life.

        I will never respond to you or on this topic again. You do not have room to speak here. This is my space. Your comments will be blocked.

        This is just tit for tat silliness at this point. I’m happy in my community and I am healing and you are happy in yours and you are healing.

        Now leave me alone.

        Comment by Lesley — June 29, 2011 @ 3:59 pm

  10. Also, note that everyone has ignored the title of this post. It was a question. I answered it in my post, from my perspective. What is yours?

    This is how we build collective consciousness. Collective consciousness being a vault of spontanious knowlege from all of us that we can pull commonalities and answers from. Pointed fingers… yea, I don’t think they create that.

    Comment by raven0us — June 26, 2011 @ 5:03 pm

    • Alright here’s my answer. In the last couple days, you’ve called me both a ‘relationship liberal’ and obviously called out my post as part of ‘pacifist denver’. Lol, i don’t think i have to point out the inherent elitism in that thinking, there isn’t such a thing as ‘militant relationships.’ I think that the healthy balance to your post is to take seriously what it means to have a diversity of tactics. Militancy can be just as dogmatic as pacifism, so a diversity of tactics doesn’t mean that we just all do our own thing and hope for the best for the other people, and you also don’t come to a solution to a problem by picking the tactics first, then saying what you want the result to be. Someone who i consider actually radical is someone interested in the result, and then willing to take that thru the end with whatever means necessary. And here is where i feel patriarchy slips into radical militancy. Sometimes things are best done with a fundraiser, a lawyer, or a letter. Bashing someones head in when you actually could’ve written a letter and it would have worked way better is the definition of macho-ism and patriarchy. I’m learning this best today thru political prisoner work. I know how you feel about ABC, but there are victories being won. When we delivered the letters for amelia to the da in person, and like the 8 of us were surrounded by a dozen or more dpd, you can’t tell me that wasn’t militant. We stood there and mocked them to their faces. They were scrambling for remains of power and we were not scared. But at no point would have punching them in the face been effective to our goal (i’m assuming you’ve seen the video). We are winning that battle (thou the war is far from over).

      So now how does that apply interpersonally? I wish you would have read Black Bloc, White Riot, because i think this very specifically works out in the pedagogy of direct action and i was wary of it at first, but now i’m actually digging this using social forms of resistance as a microcosm for how we interact interpersonally. We learn the most about the world around us by specifically trying to effect it directly. For an action, we find a solution or a goal we wish to achieve, make a hypothesis, we do reconnaissance and learn details of the world around us we wouldn’t pay attention to other wise, we carry it out and learn what worked, what we achieved, what didn’t work, and what we didn’t achieve.

      So some examples, i know you’ve talked a lot about how you’ve been doing yoga to help balance yourself. Taking out frustrations physically doesn’t always become productive, sometimes other outlets are necessary. So it brings us back to goals. What do we want? Sometimes we want to stop cycles of oppression and domination and abuse and the only way to do that is to physically disrupt it and create spaces with out it. Sometimes creating those spaces without it take flight instead of fight. Or sometimes we’re looking for healing and not disruption. I think healing (most of the time) doesn’t take punches, or punches are counter to the process of healing.

      So in the end i personally think that the final question is a non-sequitur in the process we’re looking for. Its situational, and really dependent upon our collective goals.

      Comment by Zach — June 26, 2011 @ 6:18 pm

  11. The answer to the question…there are no a boundaries. Everyone these days, draw their own lines, so for everyone, they are different. So there is no longer boundaries that are acceptable.

    You are right, this blog is right and pertinent, because it did bring out who you are. “The raw, smack, in your face with genuine comments.” It is what some needed to see, to put the pieces of a game together. So karma guided you like a “loyal watchdog,” to take care of business.

    Comment by jess mccloud — June 28, 2011 @ 1:05 am

    • I hope you actually see how much bulshit and ass kissing that post actually is…

      If ‘collateral damage’ in the form of middle eastern women and children is acceptable to you because of foreign policy, if NSM members killing brown skinned people on our imaginary borders is acceptable, if police systematically terrorizing and killing african american communities is acceptable, then sister, i don’t count you as a comrade. Women fighting back from their abusers or rapists is specifically grounded in NOT accepting violence and abuse, and its a weird thought to think it would be…

      Its funny, cause that feels like the same hippy, ‘accept everyone’s humanity’ – ‘we’re all in this together’ that nonviolent liberal dogma pushes, that it seems like you’re pretending to get past just by accepting a militant stance. Its super important we work past that internalization, and discover that some peoples actions aren’t ok, that those who justify war, rape and slavery actually don’t have anything in common with us. Then we will stop identifying with our oppressors, we will stop identifying with our abusers, we will stop making excuses for people.

      I fight that shit because i don’t accept it.

      Comment by Zach — June 28, 2011 @ 1:44 am

      • My dear sir, I do agree with you! But what you don’t understand is the mentality of what we are dealing with here. Most people these days think that anything goes. That I can create my own guidelines, laws and rules. One group says they want this, another group says they want that and then those groups are fighting each other because one thinks that they are more right or righteous than the others.

        Example: You have a group of people who have a fetish for children and they believe that their needs should be met. They don’t necessarily in their eyes need to force a child, just say whatever they need to, to get the child to comply. They in their minds have not broken any natural laws. In a state of anarchy, they connected with a community that shares with their beliefs and they live, take care of, and support each other. Now lets say you live in a community that sees this behavior as damaging. You know that they bribe, trick, lie, (manipulation, and mind games) to get what they want. What do you do? You fight their system, their community, and impose your beliefs on them.

        This has been going on since the beginning of time. Frankly, I’m not sure things will ever change, though I surely wish they would.

        Everyone here is working on what they need to, in his or her life time.

        All of what you mentioned and my example, I feel are atrocities and in my heart of hearts cannot stand.

        My point was more sarcastic because this is the nature of the mentality we are dealing with these days. People don’t want boundaries and can justify why boundaries do not pertain to them. Or they want to define them for themselves, (which I don’t totally disagree with), but when its at the detriment to another we have a problem, Houston.

        That post was definitely not an ASS KISSING, I am not the sort that needs to or desires to do that for anyone. Please go back and read it TOTALLY, with an open mind and think about what is being said.

        Comment by jess mccloud — June 28, 2011 @ 4:43 am

    • Just want to point out that you just compared that I’ve punched and slapped a couple times to pedophelia. Seems as though you may be lacking boundaries in comparability.

      Comment by Lesley — June 29, 2011 @ 3:17 pm

      • Rofl…you funny

        Comment by jess mccloud — June 29, 2011 @ 4:09 pm

      • indeed. thanks 🙂

        btw, who are you? i can’t remember you for the life of me.

        Comment by Lesley — June 29, 2011 @ 4:24 pm

  12. Zach said something so heinous and fucked up to your son the night you punched him in the face. If anyone ever spoke to my children like that I would remove them from my home, my life, and make sure they were outed as a dick-face in the community too.

    What I wouldn’t do is punch them in the face, because my children deserve to see a healthy relationship. Healthy relationships don’t include fists. What do you think that night taught Jordan? What will he take away from this whole story? I really and truly hope that it isn’t the lesson that all too many young boys pick up along the way, that fists solve problems and love is violent. I also truly hope that he doesn’t think grown ups are assholes not to be trusted. Or that it is EVER okay to drag a child into an adult situation like Zach did.

    Kids aren’t cannon fodder. It pisses me off that Zach did that. It pisses me off that you did what you did. Moreover, it makes me really sad for Jordan.

    Comment by Josie — June 29, 2011 @ 4:34 pm

    • You’re right Josie. Kids aren’t cannon fodder, but they also can not always be sheltered. That night I asked Zach to step into the back yard before I hit him and the children went into their room. Other times in our confrontations that kids have not been as seperate, but that is the reality of the severity of this situation. This is and was a bad bad situation that I wish a community intervined in and actually was genuine about rather than perpetuating the same old cycles and the same old processes. Do you know what I have found in this process? a thing called the Icarus Project. I am shocked that no one involved in this situation has heard of it before. I wish we knew of it earlier. I am not sure it would have helped in this community because it takes a lot of anima energy to accomplish, which is something that is significantly supressed in DABC but I wish we could have at least given a shot before we got here.

      Ha. so does this mean you’ve been mr.bombastic the whole time. ha. OMG that kills me. omg. dude.

      Comment by raven0us — June 29, 2011 @ 5:17 pm

      • I’m not Mr. Bombastic. I’m still just me.

        Comment by Josie — June 29, 2011 @ 5:23 pm

      • so why do you have the same email as mr.bombastic? that at least means it’s someone passive who uses your computer.

        Comment by raven0us — June 29, 2011 @ 5:32 pm

      • I guess the thing that kills me is that over and over it is all DABC’s failure, or my failure, or Dave’s failure, or anyone around you’s failure. I know that I was trying and then I stopped trying because all you did was lash out at me.

        I have said this over and over to you, but it begs to be said once more, others boundaries in their support have to be okay. I could only offer so much. Our collective could only offer so much. So on and so on.

        I want to PUBLICLY ask you to please stop contacting me, my partner, and my housemates. You talk about your anxiety and mental health issues and the need for respect and support, but you have so little care for anyone else. All of you and Zach’s issues are causing intense issues for EVERYONE around you. I live with Zach and am trying so hard to create and maintain the boundaries I need there to feel healthy. I need you to please respect the boundaries I have asked for. Stop contacting me. Stop contacting Dave. Stop contacting Pat.

        Telling Dave that you are the insect in his ear seems like a thinly veiled promise to keep harassing him. Stop. You don’t have to like Dave. You are totally entitled to dislike him or not enjoy him. Totally fair. You can have your feelings and opinions. You don’t have to drag him into the mire though. Because when you do, he stops and genuinely questions the things you say because he wants to actively dismantle his own patriarchal tendencies and mechanisms of power. That the good thing about him. But, you’re off base. The two of you don’t click. Never have. Probably never will. That’s okay too. You don’t have to click. Freedom of association is cool like that. You can coexist though. And it would be awesome if you could work towards that.

        Same with me. You don’t like me. You think I’m a fake and a self-righteous bitch. Fair enough. Those are your feelings. We don’t click. You stress me out and make me on edge. I never know if it will be sweet or sour with you. That makes me feel all too much like I did growing up with a manic depressive mom and I don’t like it. I created walls and boundaries. So, yeah, we don’t have to click. We can coexist though.

        I have no fucking idea what it was that Pat did to piss you off so bad. He is the kindest and most gentle person I can think of. He is genuine and real. He is honest and hard working. He is a badass and throws down hard for his compas. He rules. So, maybe leave him out of it?

        I don’t know Lesley, just leave us alone and out of it all from this point.

        Thanks.

        Comment by Josie — June 30, 2011 @ 5:38 am

      • And here is a big heaping helping of Josie’s bullshit and why I think Zach living with you all is extremely detrimental to his character.

        Zach’s in an accountability process right? and he has been doing a VERY bad job of sticking to it right? Do you remember when I couldn’t stick to my respect for others Josie? Do you remember who was there to separate me from Zach, from the world, and hold him and help him?

        So what? Now, even when I am feeling stable and productive and Zach is lashing out as hard as he can at me…. now I just need to be good at taking that too? You all have no place holding him accountable?

        As I have said thousands of times before. You will not be left alone when you are being extremely oppressive. It is interesting how you speak to me verse how you publicly address me. You have been publicly backed into a corner(getting caught with the ridiculous passivity of mr.bombastic) and now you pull the safety card. That is a number one reason why accountability processes don’t work, they are just avoidance tools. I actually can’t coexist in anything related to movement work beside people that have behaved like you all. It’s funny that it’s ok for you guys to come to my blog with alias’ and continue to harass me, but it is not ok for me to reciprocate the dialogue? Especially when I am asking for help with the obnoxiousness of the person who you guys are accountability partners with? Perhaps, what you need to be saying here is, “I need to re-evaluate the ways I oppress people in my community so that they don’t feel the need to engage me so aggressively.” But no, that’s just a hassle?

        This is specifically what I said to Dave: “and standing up for myself and highlighting people’s blatant oppression is not talking shit, you dictator ass patriarch. YOU need to stop talking shit and continuously attempting to isolate me. You specifically asked my friends to stay at your place and get away from me. You are who I resist. You isolate women and silence our energy and until you stop doing that I will never stop resisting you. I am the insect in your ear.”
        And god damn do I stick by that. Am I afraid Dave is internalizing my words? HELL NO! He sure as hell better be. Where do you get off determining if my complaints of him are valid or not? Because you boink him? Go fuck yourself patriarch sympathiser. If Dave feels concern for what I say maybe he should respectfully ask me to sit down and stop saying he;s scared of me.

        Josie, you are his wife(married to the state and all!) and you see him through some rosie colored glasses and frankly I believe you support his patriarchal stances because they reinforce you as the queen of that world. What Josie says in that house goes. For example, prior to me being quarantined, you asked zach at a house meeting to not have Jordan over as much. That is the FARTHEST thing from what Zach wanted, but did that matter to you all? Did it matter that he went to his bedroom and cried because he felt the people he loved were not welcome in his community? Nope, cause it is what Josie wanted. You and Dave hold the position of monarchs of the communal space. It was not a default that only white men live in your space. There were plenty of different demographics wanting to move in. The views of you two as the ruler of ya’lls domain is not my isolated view either. Where do you think I get this fire under my ass girl? Alone I would have burnt out months ago.

        Don’t tell me what fights I need to fight. I am well aware. And don’t lace your fucking post with politeness when you’re obviously trying to tell me off. I don’t need your mid-west diplomacy.

        Finally, even though you probably feel this falls under your castle’s domain, I think Patrick can speak for himself.

        Comment by raven0us — June 30, 2011 @ 4:13 pm

  13. Wow! I don’t know if you will be able to read this, now that you are blocked again, but I appreciate the magnitude of the transparency that is going on in this blog. It has been helping me with my stuff. Reading the dialogue between you two has been helpful in dissecting my relationships and those around me…sorry you have been blocked. 😦

    Comment by tabitha — June 29, 2011 @ 4:45 pm

    • hey, i was feeling like the things happening between zach and i were not fruitful. Thank you so much for your response. I will not block anything now that I know someone was gaining something from it. Seriously, thank you for taking the time to reply.

      Comment by raven0us — June 29, 2011 @ 5:19 pm

  14. I want to clarify a few quick things before I just walk the fuck away and enjoy my goddamn summer with my husband and children (I’m such a bad anarchist since I legally married Dave to give him some level of say-so when it comes to decisions and emergencies with Micah, who is not his bio-child. Fuck off.) —

    I am not Zach’s accountability partner. Nor is Pat. Catherine and Dave signed up for those roles. So texting me is not helping. It is an aggressive move towards people who pissed you off. If you have issues with Zach that need some mediating, contact Catherine and Dave.

    I have lived in this city for nearly nine years and have never seemed to have any huge interpersonal problems prior. Then you two walk into my life. Weird. What a coincidence that all this drama in my life came when someone who cannot seem to get along with fucking anyone for more than a few months rolls along. That is so weird. I must have had a GIGANTIC character shift and suddenly became the world’s biggest bitch. Roommate after roommate, collective after collective, and so on. Until you own your own shit, it will happen over and over again. The same story will play out over and over again. So, good luck with that.

    I’m not Mr. Bombastic. I’ve NEVER backed away from saying shit to you. I tend to say things in a kind way because I try to be kind. Then you just keep shitting on me. And I am so done being kind to you. You can spread heinous shit about me and my family all over town. Go ahead. My character speaks for itself. As does DABCs work. And 27s work. But, I’ll shit to your blog or your face. No worries there, mama.

    Blarg. That is my final word. Just, blarg.

    Comment by Josie — June 30, 2011 @ 7:25 pm

  15. I forgot this last piece:

    “Where do you get off determining if my complaints of him are valid or not? Because you boink him? Go fuck yourself patriarch sympathiser.”

    I get off determining if your complaints are valid not because we are sexually intimate, but because I know his character. I know how hard he loves people and how much work he puts into his community. I’ve seen it. I’ve also seen him go through an accountability process that helped him to move past some really fucked up behaviors (suicide threats as manipulation/power moves, aggression towards me, emotional instability, etc.). I can say with the utmost confidence that your assault on him is off base.

    You hide behind patriarchy, oppression, and whatever other ism’s you can latch onto. You utilize them as familiar tools of power and then scream to the heavens when others react to it as if they were the oppressors all along. You hide behind your femininity and cis-gendered female body.

    Ask anyone around me that I’ve never stopped saying that you are capable of so much more and so much better than this. That is why I have tried to speak kindly to you. Not out of manipulation or two-faced motivations, but out of a place of genuine belief you are better than this. You’re better than these blog posts, these actions, these manipulations, these shit talking episodes, etc. You’re an amazing woman who is capable of a whole fuck ton more than you are putting out there right now.

    Critiques from me come from that place.

    But, I have my guard up because you’ve burned me and a lot of people around me.

    If I thought you could sit down and really hash through this shit HONESTLY, I would. I would do it in a heartbeat. But, I won’t walk into that dialogue until you stop the drama and own your shit. What would be the point of it otherwise?

    Comment by Josie — June 30, 2011 @ 8:14 pm


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